Please enjoy our automatic transcript provided to you for Episode 25
Sharday: I would like to welcome our guest on today’s episode, Jeremy King; he’s the CEO and founder of a test, a software as a service technology company based in London and New York. Their test platform enables companies to engage directly with more than 100 million consumers across 45 countries, starting at just 90 seconds. And now I don’t want to take the shine off a test. So please, Jeremy, tell us more about yourself. Maybe tell us more about a test, your role as CEO. I understand you guys have been around for just over six years here. So tell us maybe how it got started and maybe catch us up to speed.
Jeremy: Yeah. Well, thank you very much for having me today were over 130 people, we have approaching 200 different clients, all sorts of exciting things. Still, going back six years ago, we were just a set of ideas and people with no products, no specific tech, but an ambition to offer research to far more people for far more things, but more often, um, why I care about this problem personally is I’m originally a scientist. I worked on what’s called synthetic biology things to do with animal behaviour, genetics and ecology and understanding how different biological systems work. So I have a big personal love for data hypothesis-driven, problem-solving and fatigue, facts, and information where there was nothing before. Um, I then spent nine years at McKinsey, which is a big strategy consulting company. I worked in many different countries, lots of exotic things, but I always say that people need far more research than exists.
Jeremy: There’s often gaps in any company’s knowledge of their target market, of their consumers, of the latest trends. They are looking for information to help them choose which innovations will succeed, which ads to launch, which countries to enter next, which segments like them. And don’t like them, and why do they dislike them? And like them, these are the things that power the best businesses and what causes them to grow faster. But for some reason, it was quite hard for many businesses to get this and for many different personas and many different businesses to get what they needed. And I thought as a scientist, this is not only, you know, dissatisfactory, it’s also morally wrong. You should be able to put data where you’ve got that thing, and it should be so easy, like be in a lab with fruit flies, just testing and learning. And that’s really the Genesis of a test.
Jeremy: It’s making it far easier for far more people to do more research more often and hence our mission and vision. We believe that our clients have intimate intuition that they want to inform in doubt they want to dissolve. And our role is to inform every intuition and dissolve every doubt by making it so easy to do research. You can do it whenever you want to all the time because it’s as easy as sending an email. And that’s kind of the core of what we do. Um, we are lucky to be now larger scale with more clients and some fun things along the way, but much broader vision ambition is far, far bigger than where we are today.
Sharday: Yeah. As they say – fall quickly fail cheaply, I can only assume so. Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And more and more research is becoming a much quicker environment. People are expecting their insights, uh, often at a much quicker pace. So even insights professionals using these types of software services, I think is going to be definitely more prevalent as we move forward, if not already what we’re dealing with. So, um, you know, I, I think it’s no question that COVID-19 has impacted the way that we live, uh, work, socialize everything, um, even more so, you know, it’s accelerating the demand for innovation among businesses in retail, consumer goods, et cetera. Um, and it’s as if they’re shifting from reacting to a crisis to potentially reinventing new products and services that could support a consumer say new purchase behaviour. Now at the onset of the pandemic, again, people were prioritizing, say purchasing essentials.
Sharday: We were all even joking about things like toilet paper being a bit of one of those, uh, symbolic examples of such. But, uh, in reality, it was, uh, an example of impulsive behaviours in terms of a purchasing, uh, consumer journey. So as we look towards the future, Jeremy, one question kind of remains, I think for market research industries. And that’s what purchase behaviours will likely stick around post-pandemic. And perhaps in your experience with a test and working with clients, how, how have you seen businesses may be conducting research, say with maybe your technology to understand the consumers, their current behaviours, and again, what these future purchasing habits may be?
Jeremy: Yeah, let me start with the second one because the first one is much more my opinion than the second one is kind of actual facts that I can share. So we saw, we saw two very interesting impacts as the pandemic hit and then everything that’s happened since. So between February 2020 and the end of April, 2020, we saw this just massive uptick and activity rates and attention for existing attest clients perspective and test users and just what they wants to know. Um, it seems as though our clients users and prospective clients, they all knew that things were happening in the world of consumers and it was vital to them to understand what it was and what we should do about it. And what’s next. And how is that changing on a monthly, weekly, daily basis? And that was super interesting to see. So we saw this huge uptick in demand, and we were worried that that would come out fall away.
Jeremy: In fact, we’ve had the same groups that you had before just with this huge step-up inactivity. And then it’s grown further, even since we bumped it done a bunch of stuff in our product, this sort of helped with that, but this is great news for us because, um, our mission is to allow people to do this more often. And we saw that. Uh, and the really interesting thing is business is created the demand for more research and realized this was more important, which has, you know, people in the industry is super exciting, but also very important detail. I think the most interesting case study we saw was we had one client, and I can’t name them, but there are a large, um, uh, multi multi-site retailer in the UK. They started doing research every day and what they were researching every day changed completely.
Jeremy: Uh, it was so exciting to see we’ve got a bunch of clients who do things that are kind of longitudinal in their exploring trends over time. We’ve got a bunch of other clients that are testing ideas, but it’s kind of when they come around to those ideas, this client said, we’re going to have benefits of testing and learning every day, but what we’re going to test and what we want to learn about what the priority is, that’s going to shift every day. And we sort of talked about this, like it was a moving target, and they were researching everything from home delivery stops for groceries. How should it be chosen? Should we put healthcare workers first? And you were happy to wait three days because healthcare’s workers were first or do you want that to be the other way around? Um, but then all the way through to sustainability this in February was one of the most important things.
Jeremy: Where does that stack up now, relative to availability, affordability and fairness in booking different delivery slots, but also different product items and how we get out of them. So it was fascinating to see specific Chinese clients change overnight what they expected from research, the frequency of their behaviour, but also the content that they were going after. And it seems that this is almost a permanent shift. Now we’re now 18 months later, and we still have many more clients behaving that way, but that was one client that just started doing things very differently. And I think they saw a lot of benefits from doing that.
Sharday: Absolutely. I think you’ve made a really great point about clients kind of getting on that transformation process a lot quicker. You know, there’s a lot of arguments and series that, you know, most businesses are meeting a, you know, 40-year acceleration in digital transformation. So here’s an example where research often is looked at traditionally in terms of more scope. Uh, but I think we as a market research firm ourselves, or even trying to challenge that, that us as firms, excuse me, I think are looking at how to, again, accelerate these innovations to some degree and actually provide our clients with much quicker insights than I think we ever have before. And that is that the expectation of the clients. I think they’re… they’re much more ready, uh, and ready to get these feedback cycles kind of going and going quickly. So we’re definitely seeing it on our end, and we’re definitely seeing it with a lot of the vendors that we’re working with that provide the service.
Sharday: So it’s no surprise that you guys are feeling this on your end as well; 18 months later, as you said, we’re starting to see some of these purchase behaviours may be a stick in terms of online shopping behaviours. As you mentioned, working with some clients that are, are looking at how these folks are, are actually navigating some of this. I myself have even started online grocery shopping. It’s not even, you know, a reality for me, maybe two or three years ago, and now it’s actually quite a big part of, uh, my daily lifestyle. So, um, you know, I think, again, aside the pandemic, what are other areas of market research that you’re seeing is changing because of this maybe quote-unquote, new normal. So you gave a really good example of working with a client perhaps that is starting to shift focus and maybe a quicker feedback loop. But, um, you know, what, you know, what are maybe some of these examples?
Jeremy: Yeah. I mean, here’s one that I can name. So I think we’ve seen a number of clients being bolder and looking for bolder moves. Um, as I mentioned, we exist to inform every intuition to resolve any doubt, intuition, being an idea that you’ve got and how right are you and which are ideas that are right or wrong and how right or wrong are they does all have any doubt is how far to take it. And I think my favourite example from this calendar year so far is a company called bloomin’ wilds, a London-based company. Now the biggest online flower delivery company in Europe. And they started as a company that puts flowers your letter box on a subscription basis on a gift basis for any occasion, it’s become a lot bigger since then. They’ve made a few acquisitions recently, but they had this crazy idea.
Jeremy: So they were kind of thinking about Valentine’s day, and their brand stands for helping you make the best of every occasion. We’re using flowers pretty short, but it’s along those long thoughts. What we know just in our office, as people who care about flowers and events, gifting, and delivery, we know, or at least we believe we know that giving red roses to Valentine’s day is actually a really bad idea. And in the UK red roses is the number one selling skew. Like everyone wants bread roses. You think Valentine’s day, you think red roses, that’s almost the symbol of Valentine’s day, but they thought this is, we think this is actually a bad choice. So they ran a whole bunch of research across a whole bunch of different markets. And I’ll talk just about UK. What they learned is in the UK, people who give red roses kind of freely admit, they know it’s overpriced.
Jeremy: They know it’s a last minute choice. They know it’s kind of lazy. It’s the default option, and buying a dozen red roses costs you 50, 80, a hundred pounds. Um, and that’s all very nice, but they sort of know deep down that there’s a better answer out there. It’s a bit lazy people who receive red roses reported at step even further. They know it’s overpriced. They actually, they know you paid the most, but to me, it’s worth the least. They know you probably got it at the gas station or last minute is probably only thing they had in stock. There’s Valentine’s day, we’re being lazy. If you bought 6, 12, 24 roses, you paid more money, but I don’t really care. And deep down, I kind of disrespect your choice of red roses cause it’s deeply than original. And that means you are not making the best as the occasion for me as recipients.
Jeremy: So they informed their tuition, by the way, they got quite different results in different European countries and even with different demographics of the UK. So this is not true everywhere, but it was very true in that UK. So they informed the intuition of, like, wow, there’s something to do here. They then became so convinced by this data that they decided to completely ban and selling red roses at all. We said, they said for our consumers, we’re not going to let you make this mistake. We are going to not celebrate your roses at all. The number one selling skew. And we’re going to cause you to pick something else. And what this got them was a four times year on year revenue increase in the bottom times, D period and a 51% share of media voice. And this is a company which is a small scale up in the UK.
Jeremy: That’s become very big; reasonably, but it was not well-known. They made this very bleak splashy move, completely aligned to their brand. Totally counter-intuitive but delivered these such great results and it’s those types of things. So when I talk about companies being bolder, the pandemic using data, more often realizing that consumer patterns and behaviours are shifting at ever-increasing rate that has now subs to leap to these very bold moves and delisting the number one selling skew, because you’re so convinced it’s a good idea. And so aligned with your brand value that you kind of almost have to do it after you discover this through good research. That’s really exciting. And I think that’s one of the permanent shifts that we see here.
Sharday: Thanks for sharing. Yeah. I think even e-commerce is another fine example of such where, you know, this quote unquote, if you will, new, normal is changing how we shop and e-commerce is becoming much, much more prevalent. Um, even Shopify looking at their numbers in the past quarter, recognizing again, a lot of these businesses are really starting to find that online shopping is becoming more and more important as a result of a lot of that. So, I mean, I don’t want to get too maybe heavy into the theory and the methodologies of consumer research, but I know you guys, uh, at a test are really good at doing, um, methods around things like consumer profiling. So, and I noticed that has come up a lot, even in theory conversations and knowing that your customer in both, you know, the present and the future, I think can help understand your target audience wise, you gave a really fine example of that. In fact, um, you know, are there changes even within the existing market in that, how should businesses maybe start creating a consumer profile project if they haven’t done so already? So I think even this, uh, e-commerce, uh, flower companies, a good example where maybe how would have they started a consumer profile project if they were working with you?
Jeremy: Yeah, well, deep down at a test, we believe that it should be very easy to start activities like consumer profiling and because we’ve tried to make it so easy, you should use it far more often. So very traditionally, and I’m going to generalize a lot here with apologies, but very traditionally, you would do consumer profiling once a year to inform all your decisions, or you would do consumer profiling when you get around to the point that you need to when you’re quite far down in innovation funnel. Um, what we say is, I think you should start to challenge and break those rules. You should do consumer program filing when you’ve got 50 different ideas or actions you could take just to get directional reads of each of them. And maybe you combine some of those 50 ideas, and you create ideas 51 through 70, and maybe those performed better than the first 50 because of what you’ve learned along the way.
Jeremy: This should be a much more continuous thing. And that’s why we talk so much about being easy to start being doing research quickly is completely pointless, having a fast cycle time and it being easier to simply start and execute more often that is useful and causes businesses to be able to work in different ways, which your point of view. So consumer profiling, isn’t something you should do once a year, once a quarter, or whenever you remember, it’s something that should be a continuous input, a bit like marketing dashboards or your performance on Shopify or your performance, digital marketing channels. It should be an activity like that where it’s informing the many things that you do at many different stages of maturity across all your product lines and consumer segments and target groups that I think is the biggest paradigm. So I think the biggest shift we’ve seen in the last six years in particularly in the last two years is consumer profiling is something that you can do much more often. It’s easier than ever before, which means you can put it in more places and benefit from it more often and be right more often exactly like we’ve been welded in that one very extreme case.
Sharday: I know as a, as a fellow marketer myself, sometimes data can be extraordinarily intimidating. Um, and then there’s the opportunity to try and marry if you will, primary and secondary data as well. Often I find in my, even my own experience that, you know, a lot of the times, perhaps even research can get disregarded to the simple fact that we assume that democratizing data is a whole lot harder than, you know, it may actually be what you know is maybe, um, some advice that you would have for potential marketers when they’re maybe a little bit intimidated by data, but they really want to get started say with a project, is there a secondary means that they can start with and then potentially work into primary data research?
Jeremy: Yeah, well, my, my, my suggestion is always, um, get started at small scale and that’s creating a whole project and a whole brief and a whole complex management plan. It kind of is daunting because you have to guess what you want at the end of the beginning. You can’t change it in the middle based on what you learned along the way. And also businesses move so quickly right now. Kind of guessing what I want at the end of a multi-week or multi-box process is kind of unacceptable now. Um, so my suggestion is always get started at small scale, um, make it easy to start, to make it easy, to get directional reads on specific things. And you’ll start to learn where you should look next. And this is, you know, highly inspired by the way I used to work as a geneticist, just throw out some feelers, and there’s nothing to see over here in the middle or on the right. But if you look up and you look down, that’s where it’s value. So let’s explore both those directions next, and we won’t explore the middle three at the moment like working that way is now possible. And I think is highly recommended CLO.
Sharday: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more actually progress, not perfection, let’s be honest. Right. And I think marketers need to realize, too, that there is a level of, uh, just jumping in rather than maybe dipping your toe. So I think that’s really great advice. Um, and getting started obviously is the most important part of that. So, um, you know, I don’t want to pivot too much here. But we’re kind of actually getting into a bit of a realm of what creative testing actually experiences in terms of, uh, market research and consumer profiling, et cetera. So, uh, I think it goes without saying that consumer research does support the ability to understand your consumers on their needs. We’ve been talking about tier pretty extensively, but how can businesses learn to take this information then, and maybe launch it further into their marketing campaign with confidence. So maybe really using that insights and taking it, and applying it in an action-based concept?
Jeremy: Yeah, I think the critical thing, and this is just being very honest about how the real world works. We know that businesses have the ability to only receive an act upon a certain amount of data in any given period. Uh, in that if you are set up to launch specific campaigns, and specific cycles for creative, uh, creative work, or you have a creative team, and you have to set them up in a direction, and you can constantly change it, getting research every day, isn’t going to help that go faster. It’s getting research at the right times with the right level of certainty, informing intuitions and resolving the doubt, but where it helps your existing creative process go faster. So, you know, counter-intuitively having more data is not the right answer if you can’t digest it because your metabolic rate is too slow or too different, or you just don’t want to then having what data is actually useless most of the time.
Jeremy: I think the key is to be really cognizant about when you engage with creative testing and about how you potentially reform parts of your creative process to ingest that data when it’s actually useful. So a big, I mean, let’s rewind ten years where, and I’m going to stereotype a lot here. Hey, a team would look at all the data. We can get off the shelf, run some research projects to add some fresh data to that. Now we’ve got all of the resources in our hands that we can use to create a new creative project. And we go out and execute the best that we can, and it either works or it doesn’t work based on the quality of this foundation that we built and how we interpret it on the spot. That is not how science works. For example, science works when have a bunch of hypotheses topped out.
Jeremy: Our job is to completely disprove all of them until we believe them. And then, at the very end, we are going to peer review this and make sure that what we did is actually acceptable to other people with a skeptical lens. And that therefore what we did along the way is there are lots of villas in just information to all stages, not just the beginning and just at the end, we are going to try and fail in many different, small ways, but in a contained way. So some of the hacks and tricks that some of our clients use are, um, when it comes to creative testing, specifically tests, um, new ideas, but without your brand attached to them, um, test your creative ideas, but attach your competitor’s brands to them, test your competitors’ ideas, but attached to your brand, explore completely wild paradigms and assumptions.
Jeremy: Things that you assume cannot work just as small scale, explore them and figure out, you know, what something’s changed in the last three years or because of the pandemic. That means that this creative is now, you know, plausible, unacceptable rather than too edgy and dangerous as it was five years ago. The world moves very quickly and we should be constantly testing, exploring these assumptions. And that’s why I say that sort of removing the barriers to doing research became easy to start easy to repeat is the key to all of this. And all of that apply to creative testing equally. The world of you kind of build data, make our best interpretation and commit a process to it. I think it should work the exact opposite way now. And the key is to introduce and use research along the way at many different stages. And that’s something we tried to make possible.
Sharday: Interesting. I couldn’t agree more. I think often that’s why, you know, there’s maybe a bit friction between creative teams and perhaps insights professionals. Um, uh, perhaps sometimes even in our experience, a lot of the times the creative we’re working off of, you know, their, their initial concepts and stuff. And they’re really attached to this to some degree. And, uh, you know, market research really comes in and, and attempts to try to help through this process. And we do, um, you know, ad testing and sprint cycles in terms of, uh, uh, trying to apply some quicker feedback cycles for a lot of these creative industries. And we find that too. Yeah. Uh, things happen at such a rapid pace where if you’re not testing this, you might even run into situations where your creative is even negatively impacting your brand, just based off of, you know, something that could happen as a current event two days ago, uh, within your region, which has happened with us in the past in terms of working with clients.
Sharday: And, you know, we’ve been able to flag that. So couldn’t agree more that that’s really great. I love the… the science-based approach too. I think a lot of folks tend to forget, you know, market research is really based off of that assumption. So I, I appreciate you kind of sharing and diving in a little bit more from that, uh, aspect. I think us market researchers really, uh, definitely aligned with that thinking. So I mean less about, you know, this high-level stuff in terms of concept testing and consumer research, you know, why don’t we round off this conversation and talk a little bit more a test about a test. I know you guys kind of support this area of research, and I want to maybe go more into, um, how you guys are providing a service as a software in terms of automation and moving into consumer research. So I’ll leave the floor up to you. And I wouldn’t mind learning more about the automation side of a test and maybe how it’s helping clients with consumer research.
Jeremy: Yeah, I think that’s, that’s sort of two interesting things happening in, in software as a or SAS and consumer research and market research. Overall, I think this kind of trend a and trend one, and I’m not saying one is better or worse than the other, but they are very different things. So trend a seems to be using software and technology and automation to speed up and make more efficient, existing like research processes. So where you would run a project or a brief or a specific static methodology, it is now possible. And there’s a whole bunch of people who do this really nicely and well now to take that same methodology and cause it to happen in a more automated way. We’re removing human touchpoints, we’re adding technology. Um, we are making it more efficient. These different steps can link together better. There’s less human intervention.
Jeremy: So it’s more likely to be right first time with you and mistakes. And I think there’s a whole bunch of bats, a bunch of ways that this is better. So that’s kind of taking existing and legacy methodologies of revenue, pools of activities and making it better, faster, cheaper than it was before using automation and tech to do it. I think this totally separate end of the spectrum is SAS that causes you to do more market research in new ways for new people. Um, but it is not taking what we used to do and making it more online, more meeting, more technical, it’s saying, Hey, more people in more businesses should use more market research more often. Maybe you never use market research before because you’re the CMO, not a research professional. We know both of those groups, but most of the market research activity is conducted by research professionals who do it very, very well and are fantastic at it.
Jeremy: And so many other people in many other organizations wish that they could do this far more the gaps in your data, the holes that your knowledge, the things that you wish you knew. So I think there’s a whole bunch of unfulfilled demand out there where research should be, but it hasn’t yet reached. And I think there’s a whole bunch of ways that SAS and automation and tech and machine learning models can unlock that problem. And a lot of that demand and it’s by making it simpler to start it’s by making it more believable, it’s removing all of the sort of stigma and values and assumptions about how difficult research is and replacing it with a sense of confidence. I can do this. Um, how do I work if I have questions? Oh, it’s already kind of done for me, right? I’m going to edit it slightly, but I already feel pretty competent here.
Jeremy: Where does the data come from? Is it high quality? Why are people responding to it? I can know all of that very transparently as opposed to it being a black box. So there’s a whole bunch of different ways that we can open the demand for market research. To the greatest extent, it should have always been. And in my view, the market research industry should be between 10 and 50 times larger than it is today. That’s all just been sitting there waiting for us for the taking and that’s business models and automation of making that possible for the first time. So two very different trends about what’s happening, one making what you already do, better, faster, cheaper. And then the other being much more about doing this in more places, more often more frequency. And you can probably tell from Biotics the previous questions, then, for the second cup here, I think there’s benefits of doing both, but where it gets valuable is we continue to see big famous companies make mistakes where research would really help them.
Jeremy: Um, we like to use the example of Peloton, Peloton, huge marketing budget to have all the data in the world about their target market, such a brilliant brand, so much funding everywhere, such a premium product, but yet they launched a series of ads in, um, us, Canada, UK, and other places that many markets perceive to be like dangerously, invisibly, sexist, and dystopian. Like they completely bombed it. Sorry, Peloton. If you’re listening, if they just looked outside their own building and walked to the street and ask 10 people have a look at this, they would have heard from hopefully a bunch of them and introducing some sample bias here. Um, uh, they would have heard like there is something really wrong with this and you guys just haven’t seen it and you’re idiots, but they didn’t do it. It’s, that’s one of those places where great new input, great new data could have really helped them, but yet they spent loads of money and got huge backlash, wiped, a huge, you know, several billion dollars of their market value because they made this such horrible mistake.
Jeremy: And if they just conducted one 100-person test on what my video, tell me what you think is this great, good to go or something wrong with it. Not even what’s wrong with it, not even qualitative feedback, just good to go or something wrong slash serious concerns. They would have known. This is what we need to revisit. And the fact that that still happens. But the most modern, most technical, most premium, most funded, best-known products in the world shows you how much more market research could do for more organizations. And that’s why we are here to test.
Sharday: Yeah. That’s wow. That’s a really great point. I think Peloton is a fine example of often businesses may end up paying more after, you know, the potential testing and that’s even through, you know, damage control with their branding or further, you know, budget into the, the campaign that they had to essentially scrap at that point. Um, yeah – fantastic example of where creative testing really is important and where, again, it can probably save you from, you know, having to actually, uh, double that budget to some degree. So, um, we, we experienced the same thing with ad testing as well, where a lot of the times we’re trying to get a milestone information every, every seven days to our creative teams, for that reason where, if their concept testing and entire package, you know, a lot of the times the assumption is is that they should only test the, you know, the TV commercials and maybe not even the social media advertisements as well.
Sharday: We, we experienced that a lot of the times where even, you know, the audience is drastically different between the two and they should be testing, you know, all ad rolls on all types of channels. So couldn’t agree more. That’s a really fine example. Um, uh, yeah, I guess just to even find finalize our conversation, Jeremy, I really appreciate you taking out the time and having a chat about consumer research and a test as well. It sounds like you guys got to really find platform over there and that you guys are, you know, working towards, as you said, filling a lot of the gaps in and where research, uh, is, you know, always trying to participate in, but I think often does fall short. So we even as a market research firm, that’s why we consider ourselves are technology-centric. We understand that you know, there’s types of softwares out there that really are important for our clients.
Sharday: And we actually actively engage our clients in looking towards the future and really attempting to see how some of these services can support them. Even from an efficiency perspective. You know, we’re talking a lot about, uh, automation, but that’s maybe where the market research firms come in, as we really are always looking at more efficient ways so we can figure out how to kind of manage the two you’re. Right. I think market research is a really powerful tool. Moving forward. People, more people will recognize it, especially if it’s more accessible at a smaller scale. You look at folks who say, oh, this small startup in an e-commerce industry, you know, it may not be as, um, desirable to put money behind an ad testing budget when they have say a smaller budget. And they’re only working as say a retailer as a small e-commerce. However, it sounds like, um, you know, software like yours will really help kind of bridge that gap where folks can actually obtain more information about their market research audience and can actually move forward on some things. So that’s really cool. I think, um, thanks for sharing and yeah, if you want to learn more about a task, please go to WW dot, ask a test.com and yeah. Learn more about consumer research and taking the guest out of research. So thanks again.
Jeremy: Thanks so much for having my pleasure to chat and, um, do you feel free to try our product? We actually offer a free version where you can see how it works and give it a go for real, for these exact things around exploring how tools like this work and what could it do for you that’s new and different. Like that’s quite fun. We decided to make that free to give that gift away to people who want to try it. So give it a go. Thank you so much for having me on pleasure to speak and exciting to hear what you’re doing too. And ceasing. Thank you.